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Forums Index -> Out of Genre Experience -> Wolverine
EvilRex
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:08 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1237
Location: ORLANDO

Money-wise, the franchise is going strong. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

With dissappointment being expressed from many fans and critics alike, it is less of a guarantee that the current numbers will be repeated in future films.

Last Stand made its numbers (especially openning weekend) thanks in large part to how successful and well received (critics and fans alike) X-Men and X2 were. Last Stand's record-breaking decline in numbers the following weekends reflects how poorly received that film was.

If we start seeing pre-production, script reviews, trailers, etc that remind us more of X3 other than something new and interesting then we won't see those big numbers brought in. Numbers it will have, just nothing extra-ordinary.

If they go through with the Wolverine movie, then it had better be exciting and entertaining on all levels or that will be it for the franchise. If successful, then we'll see more X-Men movies, if it fails then that will be it.
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Fireflyfan
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 149

EvilRex wrote:
Money-wise, the franchise is going strong. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

With dissappointment being expressed from many fans and critics alike, it is less of a guarantee that the current numbers will be repeated in future films.

Last Stand made its numbers (especially openning weekend) thanks in large part to how successful and well received (critics and fans alike) X-Men and X2 were. Last Stand's record-breaking decline in numbers the following weekends reflects how poorly received that film was.
.



That's all speculation as far as I am concerned about how it's made it's numbers - you don't make $400 million plus worldwide by being ''poorly recieved'' (not all 400 of that was made in the opening weekend, as I am sure you know).

Movie drop offs have been increasing for years - even superman returns had a 48% drop off the day after release, and many people here probably love the nuts off that movie.

I have talked to many people who loved x3- just as many as those who hate it. Reaction was mixed, but not outright positive or negative. I expected that since it's a much darker, balliser film, and controversy always attracts mixed reactions. But financially, the film series is stronger than ever- that's a fact. So I doubt Fox much care about the people who complained about the movie since it's clear just as many people liked it.
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1237
Location: ORLANDO

So, are you dismissing the success of X-Men and X2 as one of the leading causes to X3's own success? Do you think that the majority of audiences who went to see X3 have never seen the first two films?

"Much darker and ballsier(sic) film"..? Okay, if that's how you see it. And are you using "controversy" to defend how many people actually disliked the film. Sort of like in Professional Wrestling they called John Cena a "Controversial" superstar because he gets booed so much. I didn't see anything worthy of controversy... oh wait, you must be refering to the killing off of established characters. Yeah, real thought provoking.

My earlier post was intended to be a reflection on how the machine functions. Look at any Franchise that has come and gone. They always start out strong and garner enough attention and praise to warrant a sequel. Sometimes that sequel surpasses the original that a third is green-lit. The chances slim down for that third one to succeed. Sometimes the third film just doesn't make as strong a connection as the earlier films. Commercially they may be a success but the audience has lost interest. Studios don't always see this, they see the $$$ pooring in and go for a 4th. That's when the audience has no more desire to put their time, energy and $$$ into the franchise and we have ourselves a bomb on our hands.

The original Batman films, Superman films, and almost any horror franchise have followed this patern. The thing about horror movies, though, is that at one time (80's) they were so cheap to make that it was almost a guarantee that they'd rake in the $$$ (think F13 and Halloween). The smae fate has happened to Star Trek more than once. After part 6, it looked like the series was done. Then came Generations that revived the film series only for the audience to lose interest again a few films later.

I don't want to see this happen to the X-Men movies. As much as I thought X3 was a weaker installment to the story than the first 2, I don't think it killed the franchise. But if the studios aren't listenning to audiences and instead focus on the $$$ and bring in the same team behind X3 and deliver another film not unlike the last, those numbers will slip and eventually the franchise will fall into a similar trap that "Quest for Peace" and "Batman and Robin" brought about.
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Aaron Krueger
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 364
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Logan is definetly one of my all time favorites. I will go see the Wolverine film as long as they do one thing...make him that badass,out of control loner that he is in the comics. Cool
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1237
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Aaron Krueger wrote:
Logan is definetly one of my all time favorites. I will go see the Wolverine film as long as they do one thing...make him that badass,out of control loner that he is in the comics. Cool


I remember when I was a teen, I hated Wolverine. I always thought he stole too much spotlight from the rest of the X-Men team. I actually believe he is one of Xavier's mainstays who has the least of a role in representing his dream. Scott, Jean, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Storm, Shadowcat and Rogue all had a much more significant role in the X-Men family. Each had a stake in it while Wolverine just hung out for the kicks. I wanted more of their stories and grew tired that at the end of nearly every X-Men conflict it would be Wolverine saving the day.

In a way this happened in the movie series as well. It's been more and more Wolverine screen-time and all these other significant players have been pushed to the backdrop; some are even sub-support roles.

Hopefully, a Wolverine solo movie will not be redundant and just pretty much be X-Men3.5 without Xavier and Magneto. It should be a whole new look at the character. Show more of his dark side, his history, the ugly things that he has done because that is the animal that he is.
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Fireflyfan
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 149

EvilRex wrote:
So, are you dismissing the success of X-Men and X2 as one of the leading causes to X3's own success? Do you think that the majority of audiences who went to see X3 have never seen the first two films?

"Much darker and ballsier(sic) film"..? Okay, if that's how you see it. And are you using "controversy" to defend how many people actually disliked the film. Sort of like in Professional Wrestling they called John Cena a "Controversial" superstar because he gets booed so much. I didn't see anything worthy of controversy... oh wait, you must be refering to the killing off of established characters. Yeah, real thought provoking.
.

.


I'm not dismissing X Men and X Men 2 at all, but it certainly doesn't account for all of the audience. I loved the first two movies, and I know that they had a hand in it's huge numbers, but to say they are single handedly responsible.....I don't believe that at all.

Controversial and ballsy, yes...I don't know many mainstream franchises that kill off many of the main cast. It posed questions with no clear cut awnsers, and I'm sure a lot of people didn't want that, they wanted it explained in a neat little bow. So yes, I would say it was darker and ballsier, seeing as it took things to the next level, in terms of the other two movies.
To use your example of John Cena, I don't like the guy, but he is one of THE main talking points of wrestling fans....like him or hate him, he generates a reaction. That is ALWAYS better than indifference. So you somewhat proved my point.

I honestly believe if the same movie had been released with Singer's name stamped on it, people hating on it would love it. I truly believe that applies to about 90% of the haters, even if it was the exact same movie.

57% of the critics liked the movie, which is over half, so I wouldn't exactly say it was a hated movie. Maybe not loved by all, but certainly not as unpopular as some would have you believe.
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Didn't See It Coming
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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Most of the complaints about XMEN 3 haven't been about characters dying FireFly fan...It's been that it's missing that life that Singer brought to film and replaced it with pure spectacle...I know you loved the movie, and I enjoyed it, but you're not being objective at all...

You're making unfounded statements...Just take a look at Rottentomatoes one-line blurbs for the film...A HUGE portion of them remark about Singer's absense and how it is felt on the film...And nearly EVERY review, positive and negative has mentioned it.

I know a lot of people that enjoyed it more because it had more action than the other two...But these are people that enjoy movies as NOTHING more than entertainment and less as an art form...There's nothing wrong with that, but it says a lot about the mentality behind what drives this...Personally I would rather have a good FILM than a good pop-corn movie...As pretentious as that sounds.
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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I don't think that sounds pretentious at all.

X2 is an example of a very smart, well crafted story with loads of action and tension to keep the mainstream audience excited. Batman Begins did so as well.

The fine line between the movie audience that wants a real story told through the film medium and the movie audience that just wants to see shit blown up is the plague of filmmaking. For some reason, filmmakers, studios and audiences can't grasp the fact that both audiences can be satisifed with the same movie.

FireFlyFan, your comment that if the exact same movie was presented with Singer's name would bring about praise of X3 is a truly baseless argument. Why must arguments sink to the level where it's just accusations of being a "hater" or "kiss ass" when it comes to praise or criticism of a film?

That adds nothing to dialogue.
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~IC
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 386
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

A hard R Wolverine would be what I'm looking for but won't happen. None the less I'm looking forward to seeing how they go about this, who they bring on and which villians and story line they choose.
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Fireflyfan
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
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Didn't See It Coming wrote:

You're making unfounded statements...Just take a look at Rottentomatoes one-line blurbs for the film...A HUGE portion of them remark about Singer's absense and how it is felt on the film...And nearly EVERY review, positive and negative has mentioned it..


Exactly. If it was the same movie with Singer's name on it, most people who hate it would be loving it. I truly believe most of it is down to Rattner, and people's bias for him.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand how people can't see the heart of the movie....the wonderful relationship between Xavier and Magneto, Wolverine and Jean Grey produced some of the most emotional scenes of the trilogy for me. The whole cure angle produced so many ironies and issues....and it doesn't give you a straight awnser, which I like. It made me think more about the issues behind it and if it was right or wrong. I liked having a choice, and not having a ''THIS IS BAD'' message or ''IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO'' message being forced on me. The final scene with Wolverine and Jean really, really got tome.

I don't mind people hating the movie, but I truly don't believe it's because it lacks heart....I truly, really believe it's because it's Rattner's name on the poster. I don't mean it as an insult, I really don't.....so please don't take offense Rex. But I personally see it's themes and heart clearly, so I find it hard to buy that it lacks heart and intelligence, because I don't think it does, and I REALLY don't know why other people can't see it.

Something like Fantastic Four is a pop corn movie...I had fun with it, but I certainly won't argue that it's anything more than an entertaining movie. I do know what the difference is....I guess it's just frustraiting because I seem to be seeing other people are missing (in my opinion).

I mean no offense, so don't take it personally- I just think it's Rattner's name, if anything , that causes the animosity. I don't mean to offend anyone, I could be wrong, butt that's just the way I feel- and that the main complaint is that ''Singer didn't make the movie'' in every review makes me sure that's why.

DSIC, Rex, you are both really cool guys, and I don't want to get in arguments like I did before, so don't take it too personally, and try and see if you can see where I am coming from?
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Johnny Truant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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I hope Brett Ratner does this and Jackie Chan gets to play as Wolverine because Ratner is a geniuse and I want stuff to blow up real good every time Woverine touches it because that is cool.
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Terminal
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: Bronx, New York

Johnny Truant wrote:
I hope Brett Ratner does this and Jackie Chan gets to play as Wolverine because Ratner is a geniuse and I want stuff to blow up real good every time Woverine touches it because that is cool.

Rock!
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Sonny
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 534
Location: North Dakota

Quote:
I've seen Wolverine: The movie already, they're called X-Men, X2, and X-men: The Last Stand


My thoughts EXACTLY. That's why I actually liked X-3 more than any of them, the other X-Men actually got to kick some ass too. I actually can't wait for the movies to take the Batman route, start sucking, then someone can come along and start from scratch and do X-Men the right way...
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Fireflyfan
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
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Johnny Truant wrote:
I hope Brett Ratner does this and Jackie Chan gets to play as Wolverine because Ratner is a geniuse and I want stuff to blow up real good every time Woverine touches it because that is cool.


I want chris nolan to make it so it becomes boring and self important...oh wait, I don't want that Laughing
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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FireFlyFan, you know, dude, I think that's the first time you really presented the reasons behind your love for the film) or least that I've read). I respect that, you gave me clear, definite, tangible things to look at even if I disagree with them.

I still have to get on you, though, that people's dislike for the film isn't 100% stemming from the fact that Bret Ratner's name is attached. And think about this: if it was Bryan Singer's name attached to this, wouldn't the fans who dislike the film even hate it even more and demand Singer's head on a plate? I mean the same guy who brought us to awesome films in the X-Men universe comes back to us with this? Talk about a let down. The film had faults and people are pointing them out.

Sure, though, there is probably a segment of the audience who didn't give it a chance based on Ratner's involvement and/or Singer's lack there of. It's like the people who wouldn't give Hostel a chance on its own merits because of people's hate for Eli Roth. It's ridiculous, childish and you can't get anywhere with that train of thought.

I'll admit X3 is NOT bad. However, it isn't great to me either. There were elements missing in this last one that kept the film at a distance for me unlike the complete submersion I felt from X2. And X2 isn't perfect for me either. I never liked how Singer did nothing with the characterization of Scott and just had him there in the background most of the time. I also didn't like how you can sometimes sense Singer had a hard-on for the development and action revolving around Magneto that it took away from the deeper developments in the Xavier mutants.

My biggest issue is its script. If they were to hold off for one more summer or look at a Xmas '06 release and give more time to fleshing out and reworking the script instead of the mad rush to out-do Superman Returns then I would wager we'd have gotten a much better movie-- even one you'd agree is better than we got.

I hope they do that with Wolverine. There's no rush, no hurry. Give us the best script possible and start from there.
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