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Forums Index -> The Terror Tube -> Lost season six
The Buz
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:03 pm  Reply with quote
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My biggest problem with Lost right now is the fact that Jacob was truly the worst leader in the history of man kind. I mean, there were no visible stakes. Everyone kept saying if the MIB got off the island it would end the world, but as far as I can tell, he wasn't that bad. He just wanted to leave. Sure he killed people left and right, but hey he was pissed, I can't blame him.

Their mom was crazy and a murderer too. They just never gave us any reason why we should really fear MIB getting away other than what people said would happen.
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Dr Malachi Constant
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:48 pm  Reply with quote
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I don't know. That huge fucking thunderstorm died down pretty quickly after MIB was stopped, and it was obviously just getting started. Suppose he were to drag that kind of unholy maelstrom around wherever he'd go? Fucking tsunamis and hurricanes and landslides, the whole nine. God knows what else.

But, yeah, I agree about Jacob. What a fucking putz. That said, he was only human.
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The Buz
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:29 am  Reply with quote
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Dr Malachi Constant wrote:
I don't know. That huge fucking thunderstorm died down pretty quickly after MIB was stopped, and it was obviously just getting started. Suppose he were to drag that kind of unholy maelstrom around wherever he'd go? Fucking tsunamis and hurricanes and landslides, the whole nine. God knows what else.

But, yeah, I agree about Jacob. What a fucking putz. That said, he was only human.


It didn't stop when the MIB was killed! It stopped when Jack put the rock back in the hole.

Seriously, I'm surprised this wasn't talked about more. Was MIB really the bad guy?

The earning to want to leave an un deserved imprisonment can't be condemned as an evil act can it?
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BlackFlagg
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:10 am  Reply with quote



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I don't think it was so much he was evil, just so set on getting what he wanted no matter what the consequences i.e. Dogma, Bartleby and Loki just wanna get back into Heaven, though in doing so would destroy all existance
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Dr Malachi Constant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:15 am  Reply with quote
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The Buz wrote:
Dr Malachi Constant wrote:
I don't know. That huge fucking thunderstorm died down pretty quickly after MIB was stopped, and it was obviously just getting started. Suppose he were to drag that kind of unholy maelstrom around wherever he'd go? Fucking tsunamis and hurricanes and landslides, the whole nine. God knows what else.

But, yeah, I agree about Jacob. What a fucking putz. That said, he was only human.


It didn't stop when the MIB was killed! It stopped when Jack put the rock back in the hole.

Seriously, I'm surprised this wasn't talked about more. Was MIB really the bad guy?

The earning to want to leave an un deserved imprisonment can't be condemned as an evil act can it?


No, seriously - watch it again. The rain died down after MIB died. It's all sunny again when Jack and Kate are standing on the cliff, over his dead body, saying their final goodbye. The island was still sinking, but the air was clear.


And, no, wanting to leave can't be condemned. I actually really respect the writers for adding that layer to the character. The show was all about those shades of gray.
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Dr Malachi Constant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:15 am  Reply with quote
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BlackFlagg wrote:
I don't think it was so much he was evil, just so set on getting what he wanted no matter what the consequences i.e. Dogma, Bartleby and Loki just wanna get back into Heaven, though in doing so would destroy all existance


'xactly.
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Dr Malachi Constant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:29 pm  Reply with quote
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It actually just occurred to me, this morning, how great it was to have Anthony Cooper in that vegetative state in the flashsideways, given what that whole alternate universe turned out to be, in the end. Bastard got what he deserved. Even Ethan gets to eventually have a shot at revelation in order to move on to whatever the hell that next plane was supposed to be, beyond that white light. But not John Locke's dad. He can't even wipe his own ass. And it serves him right.
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:00 am  Reply with quote



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Dr Malachi Constant wrote:
It actually just occurred to me, this morning, how great it was to have Anthony Cooper in that vegetative state in the flashsideways, given what that whole alternate universe turned out to be, in the end. Bastard got what he deserved. Even Ethan gets to eventually have a shot at revelation in order to move on to whatever the hell that next plane was supposed to be, beyond that white light. But not John Locke's dad. He can't even wipe his own ass. And it serves him right.


I prescribe to the idea that outside of the final gathering in Eloise's church (and Ben) most everyone else encountered in this "afterlife" were constructs created by the losties out of familiar faces and personalities. The constructs each served different purposes for the individual characters.

My problem, though, is that because of some of the throwaway lines and scenes throughout the season I'm confused as to who is an actual soul in this created afterlife and who is a construct.

I think it makes sense that this afterlife was created by the main group of survivors and passengers from Oceanic flight. Throw in Ben, Desmond and Juliet because of their eventual close ties to this group and their fates. Given that group, I can see how their group conscience created this afterlife based on the "what if" scenario of what if Oceanic 815 landed in LA. Then each individual had their own experiences within this scenario that helped them come to peace and terms with their lives.

So I don't think characters in this afterlife like Anthony Cooper, Nadia, Pierre Chang, Martin Keemey, Ethan, the Marshall, Widmore, Rousseau, Alex, etc were actually the "real" deal (or souls) of these people.

I also think that Miles and Charlotte were constructs as well. If not for some of the scenes I'd say Ana Lucia, Eloise and Daniel were constructs too. And that's where I think some of the writing got lazy. Because in the end it makes very little sense how Daniel receives an "awakening" but continues to exist in this created afterlife and doesn't leave it; or that Eloise had some sort of elevated awareness of it all. But maybe they were constructs as well created by Desmond's subconscious, and that could make sense because in Desmond's experience Eloise and Daniel were sort of like enlightened guardians for him.

So, this is the current theory I'm prescribing to.
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David
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Ditto on Anthony Cooper getting his just deserts. I was thinking this was a in between space created by our heroes so they could find each other again but everyone there was a real soul. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for Eloise to want to keep Danielle there for herself and we were told that some weren't ready to cross over just yet. Desmond's "We're leaving" is what made me think the limbo plane of existence will continue without them.

The Buz wrote:
My biggest problem with Lost right now is the fact that Jacob was truly the worst leader in the history of man kind. I mean, there were no visible stakes. Everyone kept saying if the MIB got off the island it would end the world, but as far as I can tell, he wasn't that bad. He just wanted to leave. Sure he killed people left and right, but hey he was pissed, I can't blame him.


Jacob turned out to be just another guy dutifully pushing the button, and I sure wasn't expecting that this season. On first viewing it was maddening but I'm sure I'll appreciate it more when I re-watch this season.

We were just given ambiguous clues from Widmore and Jacob as to what would happen if MIB escaped. The cork is the island...the wine is malevolence...the pool of water in the magic light cave and the stone...I'm still working out the metaphysics of it and I'll think about it more when I can watch it again. And who knows if Jacob knew what would happen exactly? Not knowing the exact stakes of MIB escaping made Jack's sacrifice a huge leap of faith for the man of science. We basically watched Jack embrace his destiny and turn into Locke this last season, so faith wins!

I was switching back and forth on MIB's nature for the greater part of the season, but a few of Terry O'Quinn's menacing stares is all I needed to know that this dude should not be allowed to walk around in public. I hope an award is in that man's future.
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:49 am  Reply with quote



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David wrote:
Ditto on Anthony Cooper getting his just deserts. I was thinking this was a in between space created by our heroes so they could find each other again but everyone there was a real soul. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for Eloise to want to keep Danielle there for herself and we were told that some weren't ready to cross over just yet. Desmond's "We're leaving" is what made me think the limbo plane of existence will continue without them.


But it makes no sense that the souls of Anthony Cooper and Helen, Nadia and Sayid's Brother, Keemey and his henchman, the Marshall, Ethan, Alex, etc. would exist in an afterlife/purgatory that reflects a reality in which Oceanic 815 did not crash. Those individuals had no part in that flight and most importantly no role in the goings on on the island (except maybe for Cooper who was brought and murdered there).

I'm still figuing out the scenes with Elois, Daniel and Ana Lucia. Part of me thinks it's a little but of lazy writing or maybe intentional red herrings to keep the audience from understanding what was going on before the last scene.

But I also think that based on Desmond's history with both Eloise and Daniel it is quite arguable that their behavior in purgatory reflected this. Before Desmond's awakening, Eloise had warned him about the path his was finding himself on. This is quite similar to how Eloise tried to dissuade his efforts in previous seasons. Same goes for Daniel. Daniel's interactions with Desmond explaining the his awakening is similiar to Desmond and Daniel's relationship as his constant.
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Sirand
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:13 am  Reply with quote
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One thing I keep wondering: If the dead Losties went to purgatory and didn't even know it until they "passed on," why do they appear and speak to Hurley?

Charlie sure as hell knew he was dead when he came to haunt Hurley...but he DIDN'T know he was dead in purgatory?
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LSD Zombie
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:03 am  Reply with quote



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Soooo, now that Lost is over, why don't you douchebags do yourselves a favor and get caught up on Justified? I kid of course. But really, it's a great fuckin' show.
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David
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:41 pm  Reply with quote



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EvilRex wrote:
But it makes no sense that the souls of Anthony Cooper and Helen, Nadia and Sayid's Brother, Keemey and his henchman, the Marshall, Ethan, Alex, etc. would exist in an afterlife/purgatory that reflects a reality in which Oceanic 815 did not crash. Those individuals had no part in that flight and most importantly no role in the goings on on the island (except maybe for Cooper who was brought and murdered there).

I'm still figuing out the scenes with Elois, Daniel and Ana Lucia. Part of me thinks it's a little but of lazy writing or maybe intentional red herrings to keep the audience from understanding what was going on before the last scene.

But I also think that based on Desmond's history with both Eloise and Daniel it is quite arguable that their behavior in purgatory reflected this. Before Desmond's awakening, Eloise had warned him about the path his was finding himself on. This is quite similar to how Eloise tried to dissuade his efforts in previous seasons. Same goes for Daniel. Daniel's interactions with Desmond explaining the his awakening is similiar to Desmond and Daniel's relationship as his constant.


Maybe the Losties were constructing the people that changed their lives the most and populating the limbo space with them or else they were drawing their actual souls in. Christian said this was a place they made for themselves, like it's not a place everyone goes to when they die...Eloise had awakened before anyone else or else she is Desmond's construct. I can see it both ways. She knew of things in the original time line because she had Faraday's book, but what would make her realize what was going on in Limbo unless it was having her son back? She was pissed off that Des might be taking him away from her again. Jack's son either represented himself (he played the piano), was a total construct so he could become the father he wished he had, or maybe Kate was pregnant when she left the island. It's hard to believe but they had sex only a few weeks before the finale in LA before they jumped back to the 70's. The last one's not likely since we have nothing to go on, but I'm just throwing it out there to muddy the temple waters even more.

Sirand wrote:
One thing I keep wondering: If the dead Losties went to purgatory and didn't even know it until they "passed on," why do they appear and speak to Hurley?

Charlie sure as hell knew he was dead when he came to haunt Hurley...but he DIDN'T know he was dead in purgatory?


This is something I was thinking about too. Hurley was playing chess with Mister Eko at the institution and he saw Charlie and Anna Lucia. Jack also saw his father when they were back in LA, so were some of Hurley's visions in LA actually Smokey getting him to do what he wanted? I assume that "Dave" was MIB when he was trying to get Hurley to jump off that cliff. Another possibility is that Hurley constructed the out of time limbo space using his new island protector powers so they could find and remember each other again and that happened after he saw their ghosts.

Perhaps the extra 15 minutes on the season 6 DVD about Ben and Hurley’s time on the island will offer a clue to the mythology. I'm betting Hugo gives Vincent a bowl of water and leaves him in charge before he goes off to Limbo.
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EvilRex
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:48 am  Reply with quote



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Sirand wrote:
One thing I keep wondering: If the dead Losties went to purgatory and didn't even know it until they "passed on," why do they appear and speak to Hurley?

Charlie sure as hell knew he was dead when he came to haunt Hurley...but he DIDN'T know he was dead in purgatory?


It could be summed up as flaws in the writing. Even though there's a lot of talk and hype about how "unprecidented" it was for the creators to control when the series will end, I think it some ways it came back to bite them. Such as the inconsistency with the ghosts, visions and when is Christian actually Christian and when is he MIB.

Looking back now, my frustration towards the network, the audience and the creators gets me.

The audience started bitching in Season 2 when "oh my god" they had to deal with repeats like every other show on network tv. Yes, is hurt the rhythm of the series, and yes we'd rather get a brand new episode to pick up on the cliffhanger, but this is network tv. This should be expected.

Then they experiemented in Season 3 with the mini-season and then a break, and still, the audience bitched. Sure, the storyline wasn't at it's strongest, but still those few episodes took the mythology in new directions, not to mention introduced Juliet.

So I think the creators and networks caved into the bitchy, finicky audience and started the whole uninterrupted seasons with less epsiodes. I'm in party that didn't like this idea. I would have much prefered a whole 26 episode season with repeats thrown in the here and there so I could get more of the story fleshed out. Allow the mythology to shape itself even more. I really wished I could have seen more episodes with the history of others/hostiles/temple etc?

By the time Season 5 ended and Season 6 came around, a lot of the narrative seemed rushed. If you think about it, what was the whole point of Season 5's "Jughead" plot line? All of that business to blow up the bomb resulted in nothing other than killing Juliet and providing a red herring at the beginning of season 6. So Season 5 was only there to get the Oceanic 6 back to the island and to finally introduce the Jacob/MIB aspect. The big climax hardly meant much of anything. At least at the end of Season 3, you had the freighter arrive and our first flashforward and at the end of season 4 you learn that Locke also got off the island but was dead and now Jack and Ben were working together to get everyone back.

Especially in this last season, a lot of things seemed to be developed on the fly as a means to wrap up and give closure to as much as they can. And in the end, I feel Season 6 is the weakest of the series.
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Dario Fulci
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:54 pm  Reply with quote



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EvilRex wrote:
Sirand wrote:
One thing I keep wondering: If the dead Losties went to purgatory and didn't even know it until they "passed on," why do they appear and speak to Hurley?

Charlie sure as hell knew he was dead when he came to haunt Hurley...but he DIDN'T know he was dead in purgatory?


It could be summed up as flaws in the writing. Even though there's a lot of talk and hype about how "unprecidented" it was for the creators to control when the series will end, I think it some ways it came back to bite them. Such as the inconsistency with the ghosts, visions and when is Christian actually Christian and when is he MIB.

Looking back now, my frustration towards the network, the audience and the creators gets me.

The audience started bitching in Season 2 when "oh my god" they had to deal with repeats like every other show on network tv. Yes, is hurt the rhythm of the series, and yes we'd rather get a brand new episode to pick up on the cliffhanger, but this is network tv. This should be expected.

Then they experiemented in Season 3 with the mini-season and then a break, and still, the audience bitched. Sure, the storyline wasn't at it's strongest, but still those few episodes took the mythology in new directions, not to mention introduced Juliet.

So I think the creators and networks caved into the bitchy, finicky audience and started the whole uninterrupted seasons with less epsiodes. I'm in party that didn't like this idea. I would have much prefered a whole 26 episode season with repeats thrown in the here and there so I could get more of the story fleshed out. Allow the mythology to shape itself even more. I really wished I could have seen more episodes with the history of others/hostiles/temple etc?

By the time Season 5 ended and Season 6 came around, a lot of the narrative seemed rushed. If you think about it, what was the whole point of Season 5's "Jughead" plot line? All of that business to blow up the bomb resulted in nothing other than killing Juliet and providing a red herring at the beginning of season 6. So Season 5 was only there to get the Oceanic 6 back to the island and to finally introduce the Jacob/MIB aspect. The big climax hardly meant much of anything. At least at the end of Season 3, you had the freighter arrive and our first flashforward and at the end of season 4 you learn that Locke also got off the island but was dead and now Jack and Ben were working together to get everyone back.

Especially in this last season, a lot of things seemed to be developed on the fly as a means to wrap up and give closure to as much as they can. And in the end, I feel Season 6 is the weakest of the series.


Agreed, I there was too much ground to cover for season 6, it should have had 26 episodes especially since it was the final season.
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