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Forums Index -> Out of Genre Experience -> James Cameron's Avatar (2009)
Terminal
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 8052
Location: Bronx, New York

Karloff wrote:
Terminal wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Again with the "useless". The kids love Jar Jar.


Kids are fucking stupid, we tell them what to like.


If you're being serious with that comment, well then I have to say that you are fucking stupid.


Nope, just honest. Kids are damn stupid, have you ever talked to a kid before? I mean REALLY talked to one? They're pretty dumb. They don't begin to have their own unique thoughts until a certain age and even then in this day and age it's tough to find kids with actual unique thoughts. I hate the whole cliche that kids are smart and say the darndest things, give me a break. Kids are stupid, period. We're all fundamentally stupid until we get a certain age.
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 264

Terminal wrote:
Didn't See It Coming wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Floydian Trip wrote:
The bounty hunters were the coolest looking characters in the movies by far but again completely useless.


Useless how? Boba caputures Han and in doing so brings about a complete turnaround in that character. Lucas set out with the idea of having the idealistic hero turning into the world-weary, cynical character and having the world-weary cynical character turn into the guy who believes in fighting the good fight. He achieved that in Return Of The Jedi, hands down, no questions asked.


He achieved that in the first Star Wars. Then it was expanded in Empire with Solo still being there helping them but realized he had to get out of there because of the bounty on his head. In Jedi, all that was achieved was the emasculating of the most interesting character.


Lucas doesn't even know a thing about his own characters.

In Empire Leia tells Han "I Love you," he says "I know." Because it'd be out of character to say it back for him.

What does he do in Return of the Jedi?

Tells her he loves her.

Wow.


No. Apart from being a bit of self-reference, it's a line of dialogue that goes in line with my earlier point, about Solo becoming a good guy in the third act, rather than the self-serving rogue from the previous two films.
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Terminal
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 8052
Location: Bronx, New York

Karloff wrote:
Terminal wrote:
Didn't See It Coming wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Floydian Trip wrote:
The bounty hunters were the coolest looking characters in the movies by far but again completely useless.


Useless how? Boba caputures Han and in doing so brings about a complete turnaround in that character. Lucas set out with the idea of having the idealistic hero turning into the world-weary, cynical character and having the world-weary cynical character turn into the guy who believes in fighting the good fight. He achieved that in Return Of The Jedi, hands down, no questions asked.


He achieved that in the first Star Wars. Then it was expanded in Empire with Solo still being there helping them but realized he had to get out of there because of the bounty on his head. In Jedi, all that was achieved was the emasculating of the most interesting character.


Lucas doesn't even know a thing about his own characters.

In Empire Leia tells Han "I Love you," he says "I know." Because it'd be out of character to say it back for him.

What does he do in Return of the Jedi?

Tells her he loves her.

Wow.


No. Apart from being a bit of self-reference, it's a line of dialogue that goes in line with my earlier point, about Solo becoming a good guy in the third act, rather than the self-serving rogue from the previous two films.


But it's emasculating. I agree with the thoughts above how Solo went from hard nosed rogue to a damn panty waste. Being jealous of Luke Skywalker, winning the girl only because SHE chose HIM, I mean give me a break.
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 264

Terminal wrote:
Didn't See It Coming wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Floydian Trip wrote:
The bounty hunters were the coolest looking characters in the movies by far but again completely useless.


Useless how? Boba caputures Han and in doing so brings about a complete turnaround in that character. Lucas set out with the idea of having the idealistic hero turning into the world-weary, cynical character and having the world-weary cynical character turn into the guy who believes in fighting the good fight. He achieved that in Return Of The Jedi, hands down, no questions asked.


He achieved that in the first Star Wars. Then it was expanded in Empire with Solo still being there helping them but realized he had to get out of there because of the bounty on his head. In Jedi, all that was achieved was the emasculating of the most interesting character.


Lucas doesn't even know a thing about his own characters.

In Empire Leia tells Han "I Love you," he says "I know." Because it'd be out of character to say it back for him.

What does he do in Return of the Jedi?

Tells her he loves her.

Wow.


No. Apart from being a bit of self-reference, it's a line of dialogue that goes in line with my earlier point, about Solo becoming a good guy in the third act, rather than the self-serving rogue from the previous two films.
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 264

Floydian Trip wrote:
Return of the Jedi does have its moments but I'd rather edit together a greatest hits of that movie then sit through the whole thing.

I'd seriously rather throw in Wrath of Khan than watch any Star Wars movie. I realize Star Trek and Star Wars are on opposite ends of the spectrum in scope but they went for broke with WoK and killed Spock, one of the most beloved characters in sci-fi. At the time they fully intended on leaving him dead much to the chagrin of Nimoy. Spock's death was a powerful scene to me when I was a kid and still is today. I never felt that way about anything in Star Wars.


Star Trek fans do seem to have a different mentality to Star Wars fans. Except, that is, when Star Wars fans dress up and go to conventions, that's when both worlds of geekdom unite in unholy marriage.
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Terminal
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 8052
Location: Bronx, New York

Karloff wrote:
Floydian Trip wrote:
Return of the Jedi does have its moments but I'd rather edit together a greatest hits of that movie then sit through the whole thing.

I'd seriously rather throw in Wrath of Khan than watch any Star Wars movie. I realize Star Trek and Star Wars are on opposite ends of the spectrum in scope but they went for broke with WoK and killed Spock, one of the most beloved characters in sci-fi. At the time they fully intended on leaving him dead much to the chagrin of Nimoy. Spock's death was a powerful scene to me when I was a kid and still is today. I never felt that way about anything in Star Wars.


Star Trek fans do seem to have a different mentality to Star Wars fans. Except, that is, when Star Wars fans dress up and go to conventions, that's when both worlds of geekdom unite in unholy marriage.


They're both two sides of the same coin. A lot of them just like to pretend it's not true.
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
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They're both set in space. End of comparison.

Last edited by Karloff on Sun May 09, 2010 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 264

Terminal wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Terminal wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Again with the "useless". The kids love Jar Jar.


Kids are fucking stupid, we tell them what to like.


If you're being serious with that comment, well then I have to say that you are fucking stupid.


Nope, just honest. Kids are damn stupid, have you ever talked to a kid before? I mean REALLY talked to one? They're pretty dumb. They don't begin to have their own unique thoughts until a certain age and even then in this day and age it's tough to find kids with actual unique thoughts. I hate the whole cliche that kids are smart and say the darndest things, give me a break. Kids are stupid, period. We're all fundamentally stupid until we get a certain age.


Well, on this issue, we're in total disagreement. Obviously I'm biased, but I have a six year old and a four year old and they're both bright as a button. As for the earlier point about being told what to like. What rot! At the age of five, I wanted to see Star Wars. Nobody told me to watch it, no-one forced me to watch it. I was instantly drawn to it, simple as.

And, being the kind of dad who engages with his kids all the time, I'd much rather have a stimulating conversation with them than engage with some of the people on this forum, I'll tell you that for nothing.
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Karloff
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 264

Terminal wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Terminal wrote:
Didn't See It Coming wrote:
Karloff wrote:
Floydian Trip wrote:
The bounty hunters were the coolest looking characters in the movies by far but again completely useless.


Useless how? Boba caputures Han and in doing so brings about a complete turnaround in that character. Lucas set out with the idea of having the idealistic hero turning into the world-weary, cynical character and having the world-weary cynical character turn into the guy who believes in fighting the good fight. He achieved that in Return Of The Jedi, hands down, no questions asked.


He achieved that in the first Star Wars. Then it was expanded in Empire with Solo still being there helping them but realized he had to get out of there because of the bounty on his head. In Jedi, all that was achieved was the emasculating of the most interesting character.


Lucas doesn't even know a thing about his own characters.

In Empire Leia tells Han "I Love you," he says "I know." Because it'd be out of character to say it back for him.

What does he do in Return of the Jedi?

Tells her he loves her.

Wow.


No. Apart from being a bit of self-reference, it's a line of dialogue that goes in line with my earlier point, about Solo becoming a good guy in the third act, rather than the self-serving rogue from the previous two films.


But it's emasculating. I agree with the thoughts above how Solo went from hard nosed rogue to a damn panty waste. Being jealous of Luke Skywalker, winning the girl only because SHE chose HIM, I mean give me a break.


Ford fought hard to get Solo killed off, first in Empire, and then in Jedi. As a whimsy, and for my boy when he gets older, I'm writing a Star Wars story set after Return Of The Jedi. In plotting the thing, I've spent a huge amount of time trying to work out what to do with Solo. He's pretty much a broke dick after Jedi; there's nothing really that you can do with him. So I've killed him off. It's a very freeing thing to do, killing off a major character and I'm surprised they haven't done more of it in the expanded universe (one of the reasons I don't read those books is because they're safe and boring, and don't feel remotely like Star Wars to me).

Anyway, yes, Solo is cool in A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back but in Jedi he's just going through the motions. Ford does his best with the dialogue but it's clear Solo's best moments are behind him (apart from "You're going to die here. Convenient." which is a great line). There are many great things in Return Of The Jedi. Han Solo is not one of them.
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